Whisker Pole / Spinnaker Pole

paul_guenette · Cabinboy Joined: 09 Jul 2006 Posts: 20

We have a Hans Christian - 43' Christina. We coastal cruise in the PNW and we plan on going off shore in the spring of 2008.
We have an Asymmetrical Spinnaker that we are putting into a ATN Snuffer. We have not used this sail yet.
We do not have any kind of pole set up right now but would like to set something up.

Is it possible to get a pole that will work as a Whisker pole for the Genoa and as a Spinnaker pole too?

We are hoping to store it on the mast.

I am wondering what kind of storage solutions are out there

I am wondering what would you recommend for poles and storage systems?

Thank you,
Paul

Christina-Eos

warmrain · Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:47 pm Post subject:

We use a pole for both our assymetrical tri-radial 1.5 ounce cruising chute (though rarely) and for our genoa (while running off). It stores at the mast on a track with a 2:1 purchase up-downhaul. I documented the complete installation awhile ago.

Let me know if you cannot find it by searching...

johnrobinson · Crew Joined: 09 Jul 2006 Posts: 135 Location: Seattle

Paul; We sail a 43T out of Seattle and I mounted a Forespar extendable whisker pole a couple of years ago and really like it. I bought a combination pole, aluminum outer tube, with carbon fiber inner tube to save weight. I considered the all carbon fiber pole which is really light and easier to handle but the increased cost and durability were of concern. I mounted a track on the front of the mast and and store the pole there when not in use. The bottom (extendable) end of the pole clips into a bracket mouted to the deck in front of the mast. I move the stay'sl topping lift to the pole when I use it. Forespare has an excellent website including a discussion on mounting and using a whisker pole. So far I have only used it to pole out my Jib I haven't used it on my asymetrical spinnaker yet.

Regards, John Robinson, s/v Crossings, Seattle

paul_guenette · Cabinboy Joined: 09 Jul 2006 Posts: 20

John,
Do you have any photo's of your installation?
I have been to the Forespar site and it is great.
I am leaning towards a Forespar extendable pole if I go for a Whisker Pole.
If I get a Spinnaker pole then I am thinking about getting the a solid carbon fibre one from Forte.

http://forterts.com/index.php

My understanding is that the extendable poles are not rated for use on spinnakers?
Does anyone carry two poles? (one Whisker + one Spinnaker = $$$)
Has anyone ever mounted two poles on there mast?
Do people going offshore mount their poles on deck?

thanks, Paul

warmrain · Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject:

I'm using the forespar pole that is adjusted using a line at the inboard end; much more convenient than the push button type and stronger too.

Some cruisers carry two poles; a heavy long one and (for a cutter) a shorter lighter one. You can pole the Genoa and the staysail out on opposite sides while running DDW.

Few cruisers I've seen store their poles on deck, it is too much work for limited crews to implement and restow them. Best method may be to raise the inboard end and take the outboard end to the base of the mast or to a shroud... In my case the fully articulating gooseneck fitting on the mast caused the pole to gyrate when the inboard end was attached at the base of the mast, so mine is stored on a ring siezed to a shroud.

It is easy to configur a 2:1 purchase for the inboard end that allows smaller crew to handle a larger pole.

Fix elk-hide or other material to the pole to prevent chafe on both the shrouds and the head stay (two places).

paul_guenette · Cabinboy Joined: 09 Jul 2006 Posts: 20

Thank you very much for the information and the photos. That really helps me.

Do you use your adjustable pole on your spinnaker?

Or do you find that you use your pole mostly on your Genoa?

Thank you, Paul

warmrain · Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject:

Mostly Genoa Paul,

That's because with the adjustable tack line the luff tension and the tack height are easily positioned by adjusting that line. Additionally the tack position fore-aft also seems to fall into place. Our rule of thumb is to trim the asymetrical chute and then raise/lower the tack to the same approx. height as the clew. Then fine tune.

The pole we have is purpose-heavy. We can use to to gerry rig a get home situation replacing the boom or using it as a rudder (a starboard, if you will - with plywood hose clamped to it), even a mast stub. It may be too heavy for the cruising chute to use on the clew (though we DO have a topping lift, it is the staysail halyard as the staysail is never flown whilethe chute is up...).

I've even seen folks pole the tack of an asymetrical chute.

paul_guenette · Cabinboy Joined: 09 Jul 2006 Posts: 20

So what is the OD of your pole?
How long is it?
Do you use the Forespar 15' - 27' pole?

Thanks, Paul

warmrain · Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject:

Guessing... it is around 5-6" in diameter. It is 20 yrs old, but it is from the ForeSpar "Seamaster" series. It is WAY over kill for the HC33, it could be the pole for a 41 easily. I'm afraid I'm hunting butterflies with cannons... Confused

It is longer than the J (18') dimension off the HC33T and it nearly reaches the spreaders from the lifelines...

So the 15' - 27' might be appropriate. Certainly there are rules of thumb for whisker pole length based on J or foot lenth of genoa or something... I just can't put my finger on it.

johnrobinson · Crew Joined: 09 Jul 2006 Posts: 135 Location: Seattle

Paul; My mast fittings are almost identical to the excellent pictures of Warmrain. The only difference is that the outer end of the pole is clipped into a bracket at the foot of the mast rather than to a shroud . . . both work quite well. I've got the 17-27' pole . . . it's about 5" in diameter. I end up extending it about 4-5' to fly the jib. When I bought it the folks at forespar said I could use it as a spinnaker pole if it wasn't extende to it's maximum length but I haven't done so because my spinnake seems to fly just fine without it. Steve's comment about mounting on the mast and keeping it off the deckis a good one for two reasons . . . there is already precious little space on the deck as it is and these things are very awkward to handle especially on a pitching deck . . . with one end attached to the mast it's easy to extend the pole and lay it over the top of the lifeline while you're setting it up so there is a minimum of handling . . . then you drop the inboard end on the mast, clip in the lazy sheet and raise the topping life so you never have to handle a pole thats unattached and unsupported as you would if it was stowed on the deck.

Regards, John Robinson, s/v Crossings Seattle

warmrain · Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:09 am Post subject:

I've found that ring mounted poles (the inboard end) stow well with their outboard end at the base of the mast, but when we stored ours there the inboard end walked around the mast, from side to side, so I ended up with the shroud arrangement.

This arrangement has the advantage of an easy one-person set. If you take the staysail halyard to the topping lift fitting near the outboard end of the pole before you release it, then the outboard end of the pole will be kept approx. in the same place vertically as you bring the inboard end down.

If you tie a sail gasket loosely around the shroud and the pole it will keep the outboard end captured until you've got the inboard end secured.

Remember you should have some leather chafe guards around the pole at the shroud and headstay positions. Stainless cable makes a fine saw for alloy and the motion of the boat will provide the energy... Shocked

paul_guenette · Cabinboy Joined: 09 Jul 2006 Posts: 20

Thank you so much Steve and John for the great information and the wonderful photographs. This has been extremely helpful.

I have been talking to two riggers over the last few months and have been getting conflicting information.

Rigger 'A' is suggesting going with a Spinnaker pole, in particular, a fixed length, 19' to 21' Forte carbon fibre pole and using Harken mid-range track mounted on the mast for storage. They say this is the best set up for cruising. It light and very easy for one person to handle.

Rigger 'B' says that the mid-range track is under spec. He also that the fixed length of 19' to 21' will be too short for the Genoa, making it not very effective as a Whisker pole. Rigger 'B' says that going off shore sailing, I will get far more use out of and adjustable Forespar 15' - 27' pole set up for the Genoa using it as a Whisker pole for wing on wing and light air sailing. He also says that I would not be able to use this Whisker pole set-up as a Spinnaker Pole as the Jaw is set up to open in the 'Down' position, for the Genoa, and not the 'Up' position as is used for Spinnakers. He also says that being an adjustable pole it will be under spec for use as a Spinnaker Pole.

So it would seem that a one should choose between a Whisker Pole or a Spinnaker Pole Question

But, it would seem that if I went for a Whisker Pole that when it is shortened that it might be acceptable in light winds as a Spinnaker Pole Question

Do you think that the 'Jaw Opening' is an issue? 'Open Up' - Spinnaker vs. 'Open Down' - Whisker Question

Not having ever having flown our Spinnaker and not ever having used a Whisker pole I am unsure which pole would be the most useful when going off shore Question

Do you both use your poles more as Whisker Poles on your Genoa's than as a Spinnaker Poles on your Spinnaker's Question

Thank you, Paul

warmrain · Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:23 am Post subject:

IMHO:

Rigger 'A' is incorrect unless he personally has experience cruising an IOR boat with a large and well rested crew. Are you going to run a tri-radial racing chute or a asymetrical cruising chute?

Decide, do you want to deal with a pole flying around the foredeck anytime there is not real benefit (there is a reason foredeck crews are wearing helmets these days) or do you want simple and easy. In other words are you going to equip with a racing chute or a cruising chute?

Then after you make the right decision listen to Rigger 'B'.
I find that there is really no benefit to using the whisker pole as a make shift spinaker pole of a crusing chute.

I also find the "open down" nature of the whisker pole to be a Royal PITA and I have altered my pole to open jaw up. The reason is that you simply cannot disengage the pole from the clew when open down and there is any tension on the sail foot or sheet unless you bring the outboard end within reach. It is an easy mod, basically you move the topping lift fitting to the other side of the pole (180 degrees around).

There is no use for a spinaker pole aboard a cruising yacht so there really is no decision between the two poles (remember, all my HO).

A crusing chute (asymetrical by definition) does not require a pole (that is why it is asymetrical). Put it in an ATN scoop and it is a joy to set and retrieve.

Leave the pole for the genoa when you cannot keep the clew out any other way...

johnrobinson · Crew Joined: 09 Jul 2006 Posts: 135 Location: Seattle

Paul;

I second Steves view . . . especially if you're going offshore with a crew of 2 or 3. Go with the adjustable whisker pole you'll get more use out of it. How would you use the pole on the asymetrical spinnaker ?? If you're thinking about poling out the spinnaker at the clew (as opposed to the tack on a symetrical spinnaker) to keep it from collapsing in really light air . . . you'll should find that given the girth of the sail the pole won't be able to rotate back far enough to open the sail because of interference with the lower shroud. If you're thinking about bringing the tack of the sail farther to leward with the pole it seems like quite a bit of work and rigging for what is likely to be little gain.

My guess is Rigger A is a racer, Rigger B has more cruising experience.

As Steve says all IMO . . .

Regards, John Robinson, s/v Crossings, Seattle

paul_guenette · Cabinboy Joined: 09 Jul 2006 Posts: 20

Thank you both very much. Great information. Thanks.

I will let you know what I end up doing.

Cheers, Paul